E36 The Future of War
In this episode, Don MacPherson is joined by MGySgt Scott H. Stalker, the Command Senior Enlisted Leader of United States Space Command. They discuss the future of war, including new technology, how we fight, and the importance of protecting equal access to space. They also discuss new and developing threats against American democracy, the dangers of misinformation and manipulation, and the ways in which the United States military is preparing to protect its citizens from new technologies.
Season Three of the podcast is dedicated to exploring the future and how life is sure to change over the next decade. This episode provides insight into how the future of war and the new technologies that accompany it will disrupt the way we live and work.
MGySgt Scott H. Stalker has dedicated his career to serving in the United States military. After numerous combat and contingency deployments and decades of service, MGySgt Stalker accepted garrison assignments that include Joint Intelligence Center Pacific, Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, and the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff J2. Prior to accepting his current position, MGySgt Stalker served as the Command Senior Enlisted Leader for the National Security Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency, and United States Cyber Command.
Don MacPherson:
Hello, this is Don MacPherson, your host of 12 Geniuses. For 25 years, I've been helping organizations and the leaders who run them improve performance. Now I travel the world to interview geniuses about the trends shaping the way we live and work. Today's topic is the Future of war. Every aspect of our lives has been disrupted by new technologies, and war is no different. Where, how, and who we fight have all changed dramatically over the last 20 years. Land, air, and sea are still vital, but as today's guest explains, being able to protect our assets in space has become increasingly important to national security, and so has the ability to wage and withstand cyber war. Master Gunnery Sergeant Scott Stalker is Command Senior Enlisted Leader of U.S. Space Command. We sat down together at Peterson Air Force Base to discuss war and how it is changing.
This episode of 12 Geniuses is brought to you by the Think2Perform Research Institute, an organization committed to advancing moral, purposeful, and emotionally intelligent leadership. You can learn more and access the Institute's latest research at T, the number 2, pri.org.
Master Gunnery Sergeant Stalker, welcome to 12 Geniuses.
MGySgt Stalker:
Thank you, Don. Thank you for having me, sir. I appreciate it.
Don:
Let's start with your background. You signed up for the Marine Corps when you were 17, 18 years old, and what's happened since then? Talk about your career.
MGySgt Stalker:
Yeah, so I signed up to join the core. I actually signed up at 16 and entered at 17, and I struck a deal with my high school principal to finish school early. I was very set that's what I wanted to do. And so, I entered to join the infantry, actually, and I signed a contract to do that, but they… I go to bootcamp and you take a test there, what we call the ASVAB, it's a battery aptitude test, that allowed me to qualify for intelligence. They sold it to me as if I was going to be James Bond. Not quite. So, I grew up in the intelligence field, and I found quickly in the Marine Corps how hard work, perseverance usually meets opportunity. Because I finished school and I ended up going to what then was called a nondeployable unit — kind of bummed me out.
I wanted to deploy, I wanted to get out there. This was in 1993, well before the global war on terror or anything that's going on today. So, I just had a good discussion with my leadership, and they said, “Continue to grind, continue to persevere. And then suddenly, luck met opportunity, and I had an opportunity to deploy on the USS Guam, a Navy ship with a Marine expeditionary unit. And literally, weeks later, I found myself in Somalia on Afgooye Road. This was just after the Black Hawk Down situation. And from there, it seems to have taken off where a lot of opportunities, I found myself in the middle of a civil war in Toronto, Albania, where we were evacuating not just American citizens from Toronto, but also what we call third-country nationals and our friends, the Italians, and so on and so forth.
So, a lot of meaningful operations and really at the strategic tactical level to begin my career — a lot of time with infantry divisions. And then, like many, and fairly recently, 9/11, 2001 happened. I was getting ready to go to the field with a school that I was attending. And we continued to train and get ready for that. But life kind of changed as a marine from that point forward. I was assigned to 7th Marine Regiment, which falls under the 1st Marine Division. Maybe a little bit too much detail there, but the deal was, is literally checked in, in December, and we found ourselves, in January of ‘03, sitting in Kuwait, nothing there — no tents, no water, no anything. And we had to build it from scratch. And then did multiple deployments over the times to Iraq. In between a couple of deployments, I had an opportunity to join a team called The Joint Task Force–Full Accounting that is… headquarter is in Hawaii.
The mission there is really focused on our POWs and our MIAs returning their remains often, and so providing closure to the families. So, I found myself often in Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and Vietnam, doing that for about 18 months, and then had one more opportunity to go to Iraq. I found myself in Tikrit for a year. Interestingly enough, in Tikrit, that's the headquarters for the Border Transition Team, which is about as far as you can get from the border, which meant we were doing a lot of convoys, which was dangerous at the time. And so, we had a 12-person team, 11 Marines and a Navy corpsman. And then the United States Army issued us four infantry soldiers. I got to see virtually every square inch of a rock, walking it, not just flying over and driving it.
That led up to the end of my tactical days. And then I had an opportunity to serve for four years at Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. And now having been what we call a Master Gunnery Sergeant, an E-9, for about 10 years now, those led into other opportunities, which is something I tell folks in leadership often that if you continue to work hard things happen well. That led me to the opportunity to be the first Marine to be the Command Senior Enlisted Leader for the Defense Intelligence Agency, which was an absolutely incredible opportunity. And then another opportunity in my previous position to be the Senior Enlisted Leader for both the National Security Agency and United States Cyber Command.
Don:
I don't know that everybody is going to know what United States Space Command is, so could you give us a history and what it is, what your mission is?
MGySgt Stalker:
Space Command is really a geographic combat command, a war-fighting organization assigned a specific set of missions. And so, we are set to deter aggression. We want to make sure that the Space Warfighting, the space domain, not just as a war-fighting domain as the Russians and Chinese have made it out to be, is free and operational for all parties, whether that's industry or the Department of Defense, our partners. And so, we want to make sure we deter aggression. But we also want to have lethal and ready forces ready if we need to fight and win in this domain. Whereas the United States Space Force is similar to the United States Army, Navy, Marine Corps, so on and so forth, in such that it provides forces. What we call mans, trains, and equips, and it provides Space Force service members to United States Space Command so that we can utilize in this domain.
We deliver space combat power. That is something that we have to provide expertise to the Secretary of Defense when he needs it, when he asks for it — maybe the President of the United States and all the other combat commanders. If you think of space really as the sea lines of communication and keeping those fair and free and open for all, that's really what we're trying to do here is deter that aggression so that industry and others are able to use the space domain because we rely on it so much. You coming here, whether you fly here or took your GPS or whatever, you rely on space in your everyday life,
Don:
Getting back to deter aggression, you mentioned the Russians and the Chinese. Are there other parties against which you would be deterring aggression, or is it just those two parties?
MGySgt Stalker:
It’s predominantly focused there, but certainly there are areas of concern. We look at the Iranians who have made attempts to have capacity in space. We keep an eye on the North Koreans as well. And then we also have a lot of allies and partners that operate in this domain, not just industry. But predominantly, yes, it is focused on, and you'll hear this term often in the department today called the Great Power Competition. The Chinese have laid out a clear path forward, by 2049, they want to be on online with the United States. Today, they already have the largest Navy. They also already have the largest land army. And so, this is something, over time, they're continuing to get better and better. It's something that I saw an awful lot of. It's Cyber Command as well, where they try and do influence operations or cyberattacks, and so on and so forth. Predominantly focused on the Chinese and the Russians, but we certainly keep an eye on all of the adversaries that are out there.
Don:
And in terms of delivering space combat power, what does that look like?
MGySgt Stalker:
Yeah, so it looks like a lot of things. First and foremost, I think it is that partnership with industry. If you look at the recent launch of SpaceX and what Elon Musk and his team was able to do, that was a partnership that we worked, and the United States Space Force was able to work together. So, some of the personnel working on it were a part of our team, certainly the military officers that flew that, whether they're Space Force or… one of them actually was a Marine. And so that's part of the partnership. But it's also building capacity here. We're a year old. We're still getting people. We're still getting them into this. We're looking today at, what does training and education need to be in the space domain? Because we have the traditional ones down very well.
We understand sea land and air, but as the emerging war fighting domains come on board, like cyber and space, how do we educate the total force, and not just in space command, but really the entire Department of Defense? So, they understand what capabilities and the capacity we bring to bear to help them. Because, and I've said this many times, we're not just supporting the war fighter — we are the war fighter. And we have to have that mindset of really focused on deterrents and being ready, God forbid, if we’re ever asked to be.
Don:
Your area of responsibility is from a hundred kilometers and infinite.
MGySgt Stalker:
Right.
Don:
It's a big territory.
MGySgt Stalker:
It is. And certainly that doesn't mean that we're putting men on Jupiter and that sort of thing today. But as you look at the international, at least our definition of what space is, it's a hundred kilometers and above. When Air Force Space Command existed, we didn't necessarily assign us geographic region. We didn't have an AOR. But now that we are a full geographic combat command, and those words have meanings in the department especially, we have that AOR assigned to us. And so, the commander here has to make sure that we can understand, in our battle space, we can see what's going on, we can characterize the adversaries. We know what industry's doing there. And we're keeping an eye on emerging technology so we can, again, maintain that battle space awareness. But you look at industry today, and Elon Musk has said, “Hey, by 2024, we're putting a man on Mars.”
And I use the term ‘man,’ it could… male, female, quite frankly, that's right around the corner. So, what does all that mean? If you really look at, based on the technology we have today, how long it would take to get from Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and so on and so forth, and you really think at the future, I really see a future of, hey, if we can successfully do that in Mars and we understand that for quite some time, it's not an impossible thought to say, “What's next? What's the next planet we can get to? And how do we build that out?”
Don:
What's the role of space in traditional warfare? It might be obvious to you, but I don't know that it's going to be obvious to everybody.
MGySgt Stalker:
What it look like without space is, quite frankly, you'd have to go back to probably at least World War II, because you're not going to be able to do what we… You look at the first offset, which is nuclear weapons; the second offset was precision guided munitions — you're not going to be able to do any precision guided anything without the space-based platforms. You're not going to be able to see, characterize, and understand your adversary in the modern sense of it, short of putting an individual on a hilltop and looking out with a telescope or something. And so, it really brings us back 60, 70 years to where we were, not just as war fighters, but as an international community. You're not going to be able to do the things we do, and our economy relies on it tremendously.
And so, going back to those days is not realistic. I think that is why we really focus, number one, here at Space Command, on the deterrence mission. We're not interested in having a war, and I'm quite confident that the Chinese and the Russians and others don't want to have a war with us. It's nice that we have these capabilities and we have to be ready to provide those to the Secretary of Defense when necessary. But most professionals, especially those of us who have been in the fight, are not interested in doing it again if we don't have to. We want to deter that.
Don:
You made a comment about the Chinese and the year 2049. That's a goal for them to be on par with the U.S. military, or is that a goal for them to be on par with the U.S. military in space?
MGySgt Stalker:
There's a few things here. There's desire to be on par with us militarily, as I've read it, by 2035, and as a nation, they want to really be rejuvenated by 2049. Some initiatives, they have to do this — You may have heard of the Belt One Road Initiative as they've tried to connect other nations so that they can do trade and that sort of thing. There's also some things that we've seen that have really not worked out for a lot of countries, and it's really tying those nations economically to China as are not able to pay for a port or a road, or that sort of thing, and then they basically lease out these ports and facilities to the Chinese for a hundred years or so. We've seen their behavior, whether it's how they treat their Muslim population, which is horrendous, and their lack of freedom of the press to cover that.
You really have to dig far to even find anything about that. I saw an interview recently where they talked to local Chinese about the Tiananmen Square incident. Most of them have never heard of it because it's censored and they don't have that information. What we're trying to do is to have international norms. We want to have relations and we want to be able to trade and have these conversations with our partners and allies throughout the region. Again, we're not interested in war, but we want to make sure the sea lines of communications are free, whether it's the South China Sea, as you see the Chinese are building up islands, and then they said they're not going to militarize them — and then they did militarize them.
So, we see more and more of this behavior. You see it with the Russians when they annexed Crimea. You see a lot of things today going on in Belarus that can be concerning with the elections and the protests that are going on there. And the Russians certainly have shown the will to act, if necessary, to take what they believe is theirs.
Don:
Related to space, where would China and Russia compare to where the United States is competitively?
MGySgt Stalker:
Well, no doubt, today we have the space high ground. We are the superior force, if you will, in space. That would have to be a decision by our elected officials and industry to continue to invest in space, to invest in, not just space command, but our relationships with our partners to continue to stay ahead of the Chinese, and then protect the information and the sensitive stuff that we have operating in space. So, as I've talked to leaders here, and I've heard others publicly speak, we certainly do have superiority in space today, but that superiority shrinks over time if you don't continue to invest heavily in that war-fighting domain.
Don:
What sort of investment is required in order for us to maintain superiority?
MGySgt Stalker:
I think one of the things that Chinese do that it's a challenge for us with our election cycles is a long-term, what's the 2049 plan here? So, we have to have that long-term approach because you're not going to build a satellite in a day. You're not going to build a capability today and launch it and that sort of thing. So, we have to look at the emerging technology, investing truly in our time with academia and industry and our partners. Not just the UK and our traditional partners, but other partners, whether that's France or Germany, or you pick your country, so that we can put together a capability that keeps us ahead. And then protecting that intellectual property, which we've seen a challenge, especially in the cyber domain where a lot of that, and you've heard one of our previous Secretary of Defense has mentioned it as one of the greatest thefts of our time — intellectual property thefts — that the Chinese has been able to steal.
You look at things like the F-35, it's interesting how they have a similar looking variant to that. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how they got those types of things. And so, we have to really protect what we have and to continue to partner with those key partners.
Don:
What are some other technologies that you're aware of that are going to completely alter the face of war?
MGySgt Stalker:
One of them is fascinating, and my wife and I talk about this because of her background is in biotechnology. And so, looking at things like CRISPR, where you can manipulate genes. And it's starting to get in its infancy, and you touched on it in an earlier podcast as well, but imagine a future where you can take soldiers, and I'll use that as a generic joint term, and you can alter the genetics in them so that they can operate at a higher altitude without the logistical support, or they're able to operate in a cold weather environment, or they're a little bit stronger. And so, you make the performance-enhancing drugs and those other things null and void just by being able to manipulate genetics today. And so, certainly that's an emerging area of concern as well.
Ethically, how do we operate in that area? If our adversaries are going to do it regardless of their ethics, as we look at what they're doing today with COVID testing on their soldiers, and we're going to go through the process to make sure things are safe and ethical, does that force us into a manner of having to do it? You've talked a lot and we've heard a lot about artificial intelligence. I'm really more interested today in machine learning because that's where the technology is today that allows machines to learn a skill that we code them specifically to do, and then what that does to the decision cycle. Because we have weapons platforms today — you've probably heard of, of hypersonic weapons that are exceeding Mark V.
And when you have a human in a decision cycle and they've got a make a decision quickly to take that out or whatever, you may not have time. And so, machine learning and then future of artificial intelligence is certainly from a defensive perspective, a defense of the homeland, is something that I'm fascinated in, and we're going to continue to have to invest in because the threat's going to drive us to that. Yeah, those are a couple. And quantum, we've talked about before, and I've heard you talk about before — that's an interesting one that's very confusing for a lot of folks. It's a challenge to define and understand. But really, if you look at encryption and the algorithms that are out there today, quantum has the potential to make a lot of that null and void. And so, we have to have quantum resistant capabilities as well. And then lastly, machine brain interface and how Elon Musk and others in industry are looking at, how do we get computers and the human brain to work together and make decisions and speed up the decision cycle?
Don:
What's the likelihood that China or another country is operating and using CRISPR to change humans for the sake of warfare?
MGySgt Stalker:
I think we'd be naive to think they wouldn't make every effort to do that. We've seen how they often value some life in their countries. I don't know this for certain, but I would imagine that they are looking at opportunities and working with their scientists to see what's in the realm of possible.
Don:
There are a couple of war technologies that we didn't talk about. And I would like for you to comment, if you don't mind, on just perceptions and using fake news or manipulating a population to destabilize. In my opinion, we're experiencing that right now with Russian interference in the 2016 election. But just fake news in general, this can be a powerful tool in destabilizing countries. Do you see this in the same way that I'm describing it?
MGySgt Stalker:
Yeah, I lived it, and I can say with a hundred percent certainty that the Russians did try to interfere with our election in both 2016 and in 2018. And we know for certain they're continuing to do that today. As we talk about the emerging technologies here that really concerns me about is, imagine a couple of days before the election, a deep fake video, what we call deep fake, with not enough lead time to get the voting electorate to realize none of that actually happened, and how you could potentially sway an entire electorate based on the technology in today. So, we really have to get a wrap on this deep fake technology. It's something that I see in social media. I am blown away at what people believe and see on there without verifying sources. And some of that I blame on the individuals.
Some of that I blame on, quite frankly, the media for continuing to work hard to get the story out quickly instead of getting that out accurately. I always point to personal responsibility. And the individual really has to read up on what's going on and do their best. That's getting harder and harder. Folks ask me all the time, “Hey, where do you get your news from? Where do you get your sources from?” And I'm running out of places to tell people to go that I personally have confidence in. And so, it does concern me. And we know that the Russians continue to do that, whether they create fake social media accounts and they decide we're going to really go after a certain population. Pick your story, whether it's gun rights, there's certainly a sector that's for it and there's others that would prefer to have more restrictions on it. You get them all riled up and backing a certain politician, and it can sway in either way.
We know that for certain they weren't able to get in and change the votes, but if you can change what's in their mental capacity and their opinion, you don't have to go in and change the actual vote.
Don:
Well, that's right. And how do we hold the Russians or any of these other actors accountable?
MGySgt Stalker:
Yeah, that's the million-dollar question is how do you deter?
Don:
I'm surprised that we haven't taken greater measures.
MGySgt Stalker:
I will say, and I can't get into a lot of that — we do, as a department, and certainly my previous teammates do an awful lot that you may not see on a daily basis, but we're in this phase really, that you'll hear now of competition below the level of armed conflict. And what does that mean? There are certain things that we don't have international norms on, but does the manipulation of the voting electorate via me creating a social media account constitute an act of war? And certainly not. So, how do you respond to that? And it's a challenge to deter. It really is. We've done cyber command, and others have done an awful lot to deter. But to your point, to date, it has not fully deterred.
Don:
What measures is the United States military taking related to cyber warfare?
MGySgt Stalker:
Cyber Command is built out of a force of 133 teams, and they have those forces assigned to both different combatant commands, and then internally to, to take on different threats. Much of it is focused on defending our networks so that a command-and-control, so that the ability to communicate, to use our weapons platforms to train, to conduct exercises, we're able to do that freely and that sort of thing. But also, again, similar to what we do here, working with industry academia so that we stay ahead of the curve because this is…. whether it's Moore's Law and saying that technology will continue to evolve at a certain speed, certainly in cyber it continues to evolve.
You think of, it was the iPhone that was cool a couple years ago; now you got it on your watch. Where does that lead maybe in an embedded system as well? Much of it focusing on defense. There is capability out there, of course, and I won't be able to get into much of that there, so that we can provide a deterrence. The adversary has to realize that we can punch back if we need to, and we can punch back very hard. And I can tell you, knowing those professionals that work there, they're incredible.
Don:
So, punching back, is that against state actors, state sponsored actors, or could this be against individual actors?
MGySgt Stalker:
It could be both. And certainly, you look at what you'll hear of often is this two plus three great power competition terminology. So, the two is being China and Russia, and then the three, kind of lesser actors in North Korea, Iran, and then that VEO piece. That is it could be targeting individuals that are in the violent extremist organization. It could be specific leaders of ISIS. It could be specific leaders that are trying to recruit, that are trying to get their message out on various platforms, social media, whatever the case may be. And so, it could be both. They're not vectored to where they can only focus on one area. They can do multiple at a time, and they're built and trained and equipped to do that.
Don:
When you think about a satellite going out or several satellites maliciously going out, what could that potentially do to the economy?
MGySgt Stalker:
Oh, that would… It’d depend on which one, of course.
Don:
Right, But let's say the ones that are very critical to banking, for example, or transportation, or just critical infrastructure type activity.
MGySgt Stalker:
So, we're tracking roughly 26,000 objects in space today.
Don:
26,000?
MGySgt Stalker (25:59):
26,000.
Don:
Oh my goodness.
MGySgt Stalker:
And that's going to continue to grow.
Don:
What are those objects? Sorry to take you offline, but I know satellites obviously, but I didn't think there were anywhere near that many.
MGySgt Stalker:
A lot of them are satellite, certainly industry, certainly things that other foreign nations have up there as well. Some of it's space debris. You think at the speed at which things are moving up there in space, and if they’re certain size, they can take out a satellite just like that. And these are billion dollar platforms we have up there. And so, we have to keep an eye on and track where those are so that if we want to maneuver or do some things in space, we know where that's at. So, what would it do to the economy? I think you, if you're taking out a satellite that provides support to the financial sector, it's not just the United States of America that's going to be harmed, it's the global economy. And so, there's certainly going to be extreme pushback for any nation doing that.
They're going to be dealt with in an international norm. I can't tell you today that that's going to cause us to conduct an offensive action or what it's going to have. I know that the Secretary of Defense and the President reserve all options and they keep all options on the table if something like that, especially if it was maliciously done. That's something that we can't tolerate, we can't accept. And we would make sure that we provide those options to see how we're going to handle that, but it would really harm us. And quite frankly, I think because of the relationship we have with China or whatever, it would be really counterproductive to their own efforts, in many ways, because it would be harmful to their economy too.
Don:
I wanted to ask another question about just the cyber domain and that — you alluded to it earlier — and that is protecting intellectual property. We know that China, and very likely other countries, have stolen a lot of intellectual property from U.S. companies and from companies around the world. What is the role of the U.S. military in enforcing and holding actors like that accountable?
MGySgt Stalker:
So, there's no question that the Chinese have done this. There's zero question that they've done this. The role really is laid out kind of clearly for the Department of Defense and Cyber Command than others. We are not there to tell industry that they have to do things. But when asked of us in our professional capacity and assigned that mission, we're certainly there to help provide expertise and to make sure… Much of it, it really gets down to the basics and fundamentals, just like any other kind of thing in life. It's doing simple things like having a strong password. It's doing simple things, not clicking on a link from someone, especially that you don't know who they are, to protecting your computers and that sort of thing so that individuals can't get in.
You want to make yourself that hard target. And so, we, as a department, certainly have a lot of that expertise. Much of it, we work through Homeland Security and the FBI as they identify these things. And it can be frustrating. I get that and I understand that, but I don't think you want the Department of Defense in specific banks defending their networks. I don't think you want the Cyber Command in industry and telling them how they have to do this. But we do have a role to play and we can't make excuses there, but it's usually when asked or requested.
Don:
Now, the cybersecurity topic is really fascinating to me because I just recognize how vulnerable companies are. And the example I like to use is the Equifax hacking, where I think 140 million records were breached, and they were worth about $15 billion around the time that the announcement went out. And they lost a third, $5 billion of their market in a week.
MGySgt Stalker:
This is serious business. It's no longer can we think of this as a bunch of geeks in the basement. This is serious.
Don:
And Equifax is worth 15 billion, Apple's worth 2 trillion, Amazon's worth 1.5 trillion — These are enormous companies. Facebook, three quarters of a trillion dollars. So, these are very big companies and very much valued based on the data they have and protecting that data.
MGySgt Stalker:
Certainly, as parents, this is an emerging area. And I'm going to be focusing heavily with my daughters on mathematics and computer science because the opportunities are endless. If you have a company that's $2 trillion, you certainly cannot afford to have your intellectual property stolen. The shareholders are going to bail and you're just going to lose everything quickly. And so, all of industry is heavily invested in this. The financial sector actually does a fairly good job in there. You mentioned Equifax, you look at OPM, the breach that we had a few years back as well. We have to put in certain personal information to apply for our security clearance. A lot of that was stolen. My personal information was stolen as well. And so, there's a lot of questions that an adversary has, and what can they do with that information later? They can certainly use that to open a credit. They can certainly use that to have a fake social media account. Possibilities are endless to replicate you, at least virtually.
Don:
So, this is a bit off topic, but I think still well within your wheelhouse, and that is you’re a young father, or father of young children, as I like to say, because I'm not a young father, but I've got young children. So, you're in a similar boat and the amount of data that people are putting out about themselves is incredible, and it's only going to increase, I'm imagining. And so, how would you recommend that young people protect themselves? Because that information is very powerful in the hands of the wrong people. So, what recommendations do you have there?
MGySgt Stalker:
It is powerful. Everyone in America has their own television station now. You can go live anywhere you want and tell any story you want. I use this terminology, and it relates to marines, but I would say it to anyone is, if you're going to post this, would you be able to share that with the commandant of the Marine Corps, so that the leader of the Marine Corps? I tend to refrain from certainly anything political as a military member. I don't want our politicians thinking that the Marine Corps is a Republican Party and the Navy is a Democratic Party, or so on and so forth. So, I stay absolutely apolitical throughout. I never comment on that. I never click on like, anything. I think that really we just have to be aware that this is an opportunity to tell your story, but you also want to keep things, certain things private.
I have things with my family and my wife that are just for us because we treasure those things. Once you post it, it's there forever. It's literally there forever. You look at applications we have today, take TikTok, for example, and there's this internal conversation of the Chinese and how they're going to use this. There's international law that the Chinese have that say, “If you're a Chinese company or you operate in China, all of the data, whenever we want it, is ours.” And I know that there are folks in the United States military and Americans that have TikTok application. Basically, what they're saying is the Chinese can have all of my information.
Don:
If you wouldn't mind just summarizing what you think the future of war looks like.
MGySgt Stalker:
I think, a single word, it's unmanned, but there's parallels. There's two tracks here because obviously the global war on terror, for lack of another term, is a generational fight. We're not going to have an international kumbaya and violent extremist organizations are going to fold up and go away. And so, that is a concern that we're going to have to have, a fight we're going to have for a long period of time. The one that I'm really focused on and spending a lot of time is really in the great power competition with the Chinese and the Russians. And what does that look like? My ultimate concern, because I don't believe today that the Chinese are going to try to invade North America or the Russians or so on and so forth. I don't foresee that happening.
But as we have treaties and alliances with other partners, we saw several years ago, I believe it was in 2017, when the North Koreans were launching rockets, one of them, they launched over Japan. What would happen if that rocket accidentally landed in Japan? By treaty, we're there to defend the Japanese. What does that mean? Does that mean we're suddenly, as a nation, drawn into a conflict there with the North Koreans? And by the same manner as you see China continuing to flex their muscles against Taiwan, if they were to act against Taiwan, we have obligations with Taiwan as well. And so, that's where I'm really concerned with the future of warfare — is getting pulled into something because of a partnership. And rightfully so, because we put our name as Americans on those documents saying, “We will defend and support our partners.”
But I would hope that we can settle things diplomatically. But the future of war, hypersonic weapons, we're seeing them today. We're understanding that these things can exceed Mark V, and greater. Stealth — we've had that for quite some time. It'll continue to get better and better. Machine learning, artificial intelligence, which is going to be able to provide that early warning, but potentially making decisions to attack certain targets and that sort of thing. And so, all of the things we talked about today — CRISPR and genetic manipulation, and modifications of humans — could be on the future of war. I hope the future of war is well into the next couple of centuries and we can really figure out how to live amongst ourselves diplomatically and have these relations and trade, and that sort of thing — and so my daughters can grow up in a peaceful environment. But as a Marine, as a member of Space Command, as a professional combat athlete, as I like to say, we've got to stay ready just in case our nation calls on us.
Don:
Well, I, for one, am grateful for people like you…
MGySgt Stalker:
I appreciate it, sir.
Don:
… who are willing to dedicate your life to the service of our country and keep us safe. Is there anything that I should have asked you about U.S. Space Command that I didn't or about cyber warfare that I didn't, that you wanted to cover?
MGySgt Stalker:
I'll stay out of the cyber one. I think we did a good amount there. I'll just tell you, this area of space, there's a lot of question. You hear on the news as to why does this exists? Our adversaries of militarized this. We've seen the capabilities, directed energy weapons. We've seen anti-satellite capabilities and that sort of things. And so, we have to, as a nation, invest. We have to, as a nation, be prepared to support across what we call the DIME — diplomatic, information, military, and economically, so that we can thrive as a country and work with our partners. And so, this wasn't something that we necessarily were looking to militarize or to operate in, and call it this warfighting domain.
Because up until recently, we didn't call it that. We didn't call it a war-fighting domain. But our adversaries have required us to do this. And so, as Americans, I want America to be confident that the professionals we have at Space Command and that operate jointly as civilians and as service members in this environment, you've got extreme talent here. And I'm confident, for the next several years, especially under the leadership we have, we're going to continue to maintain that dominance in this domain.
Don:
Well, I will ask you then one more question about that because I would think that the talent that you need to operate is different than traditional military talent. So, where can people who are interested in being a part of U.S. Space Command learn more?
MGySgt Stalker:
So, they can certainly check out our website. They can certainly contact our public affairs team via our website. There's a couple of lanes here. Obviously, there are certain specialties we look for in our civilians.
Don:
And what are those?
MGySgt Stalker:
Well, some of them could be, whether they're space operators and understanding computer science and those types of things, but I don't… In any of the organizations I've worked at, it's not always about those that are, I'll call trigger pullers, if you will. And so, if you look at the room today, we have a professional with us who's making sure this event goes properly. Public affairs, we have admin, we have logistics, all of those traditional things as well. We have civilians scattered throughout Space Command. Great individuals who either took the uniform off or wanted to serve in a different capacity as a civilian teammate. And so, those are areas. But to your earlier point, you mentioned recruiting, in some ways, talent management of this. That's a challenge. And that was a challenge that I saw in Cyber Command as well. Because you're talking about individuals who … It's not so much about college degrees in this area — it's about capability to perform. And oftentimes, our cyber operators and our space professionals are going to have a lot of opportunities on the outside world if they want to make a lot more money, or maybe they just want to stabilize.
And so, it's incumbent upon leaders, myself and others, to make sure we're having these conversations with our workforce, our people, and then also the leaders that make the decision on where they go if they're in the military or keeping a civilian teammate here longer, so that we can identify that talent and say, “Listen, I understand traditionally there's a three-year rotation, but for this individual, for Sally, for Johnny, I need to keep them for another year or two because they really are able to do x.” The good news is, is those relationships exist, and we're able to do that when necessary, but it's something that we got to continue to stay on. Because the beauty of it is we have such extreme talent, but it's also, it's hard to keep them because they have options.
Don:
Yeah, I know it. The Fortune 500s have a difficult time filling cybersecurity jobs. So, I would imagine it's not easy for you.
MGySgt Stalker:
Before I interviewed for this job, I was offered a couple of positions, and it was a dollar sign that I wasn't familiar with. But I genuinely love this. And so, to me, it hasn't been about the money. It's about an appreciation for what we do. It's an appreciation for our people. And as I've told my wife, if we continue to work hard, those opportunities will be there and a little bit. But I'll tell anyone that I'm not leaving here. So, you got a couple of years, at least for me, and I'm looking forward to serving with the folks here. And then we'll worry about those opportunities later as I approach my 30th and 31st year of military service.
One last question. Is it true that you are a member of the Pentagon's Powerlifting Hall of Fame?
MGySgt Stalker:
It's partially true.
Don:
Partially true. Tell me more.
MGySgt Stalker:
The reason it's partially true is because it existed for eight days.
Don:
Were you a founding member?
MGySgt Stalker:
No. So, but what is true is my wife is, and she still is. My wife is in the top five, I believe all time, there, and she's incredibly powerful. So, I put up a total in… You do bench press, deadlift, and squat, and I put up, I think it was 1305 total. And so, that made it in the top 12. And then, eight days later, someone bumped me out. So, I have the shirt, I have the photo of me being in the Pentagon Powerlifting Hall of Fame, but I did pull that off of my bio that's been updated because I'm no longer actively on that board anymore. But I will tell you this — I've begun training again. My shoulders healed, my back is healed, and I will be back to a very high number soon. And maybe I create a Space Command Hall of Fame and put my name on their first.
Don:
There you go. There you go.
MGySgt Stalker:
But I always wondered, how much can I lift on the moon?
Don:
Oh, a lot more.
MGySgt Stalker:
I probably could-
Don:
Yeah, cars.
MGySgt Stalker:
So, it's a matter of where you are. I can bench press a car. It's just a matter of what planet I'm on.
Don:
Master Gunnery Sergeant Stalker, thank you for your time today. I've loved this conversation, I could go on and on, and thank you for being a genius.
MGySgt Stalker (41:40):
Thanks for all you do for us, sir. Thank you.
Don (41:43):
Thank you for listening to 12 Geniuses and thank you to our sponsor, the Think2Perform Research Institute. Our final episode of Season 3 of 12 Geniuses will be released December 8th, and we're excited to announce that during Season 4, we will continue on the theme of the future with 12 more episodes starting in January. Devon McGrath is our production assistant; Brian Bierbaum is our research and historical consultant; Toby, Tony, Jay, and the rest of the team at GL Productions in London make sure the sound and editing are phenomenal. To subscribe to 12 Geniuses, please go to 12geniuses.com. Thanks for listening, and thank you for being a genius.